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Q & A 2003 part one

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Q from David Cabrera, Worcester Park, Surrey, U.K., 30 June  2003:  Which other England capped players apart from David Beckham and Steve McManaman have also played for Real Madrid?

A from PY.  Only the late, great Laurie Cunningham, who played three times for England in 1980 while with Real Madrid.  Laurie became the second black player to appear for England when he made his debut while with West Bromwich Albion in the scoreless draw with Wales at Wembley on 23 May 1979.  He earned six caps in 1979 and 1980.  He was killed in a car crash near Madrid on 15 July 1989.  Beckham, of course, has not yet appeared for England as a Real Madrid player; in fact, his transfer to Real will not become final until later this week.

Q from Peter Passant, Sydney, Australia, 17 June 2003.  One of your Q & A responses was for the Great Britain lineup in the 1947 match against the Rest of Europe. Do you know what the Rest of Europe lineup was and who scored their solitary goal?

A from PY.  Our answer to that question said, "We have a section devoted to England players who have appeared for international representative selections, and it has the summaries for this match and many others."  The link under "a section" was put there to be clicked, and if you click it, you'll find the information you want.  Readers, please pay attention; we're tired of answering questions already answered on the website.

Q from Alex, Manchester, England, 12 June 2003:  I am trying to find out the attendance for the England v USA 'B' International that was played at Old Trafford on 13th or 14th October 1980?

It was played on the 14th of October, 1980, with England winning 1-0 on Derek  Statham's 51st minute header from David Armstrong's cross.  The attendance was 7,176, which the Football Association described as "[a] fairly reasonable crowd."  We haven't yet posted a list of England B team results, but hope to do so.

Postcript from CG: And here it is....

Q. from Paul Ellse, Derby, England, 10 June 2003:  Who scored England's 1000th goal?

A from PY.  We couldn't find this anywhere and so did the calculations ourselves from our database of England's results.  England's 1,000th goal was their first in the 5-1 British Championship victory against Wales at Wembley on 23 November 1960.  That goal was scored by--who else?--Jimmy Greaves. It came in England's 345th match.

Not everyone will agree with this answer.  As our website's article on disputed official and unofficial matches points out, FIFA and the International Federation of Football History and Statistics differ from the Football Association over which matches are official and which are unofficial.  Four of these disputed matches were played before 23 November 1960.  FIFA regards as unofficial the second 1923 match against Sweden and both the 1938 and 1953 matches against the Rest of Europe, while the F.A. regards them as official.  FIFA regards as official the first 1902 match against Scotland (the Ibrox Park disaster match), while the F.A. regards it as unofficial.  We have followed the F.A. designation of matches as official or unofficial.

Q from Stephen Smith, Enfield, London, U.K., 1 June 2003:   Could you  tell me England's longest unbeaten run, including friendlies? 

A from PY.  The longest unbeaten streak is the 20 matches played between the 3-2 home loss to Scotland on 13 April 1889 and the 2-1 away loss to Scotland on 4 April 1896.  England's record during this seven-year streak was 16 wins, 4 losses.  In those days, of course, they played only three times per year, once each against the other home countries, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, in the British Championship. Of these 20 matches, 9 were played at home.

After World War II, the longest unbeaten streak is the 19 matches played between the 3-2 home friendly loss to Austria on 20 October 1965 and the 3-2 home British Championship loss to Scotland on 15 April 1967.  England's record during this 18-month streak, which included the 1966 World Cup, was 16 wins and three draws.  Of the 19 matches, 12 were played at home.

The third longest unbeaten streak is the 18 matches played between the 2-1 away loss to Scotland on 7 April 1906 and the 2-0 away loss to Scotland on 2 April 1910.  England's record during this four-year streak, which included the first matches against Continental European opposition in 1908 and 1909, was 14 wins, 4 losses.  Of these 18 matches, only 7 were played at home.  

England had a 17-match unbeaten streak between the 3-1 loss to the U.S.S.R. at the European Championship final tournament in West Germany on 18 June 1988 and the 2-1 friendly loss to Uruguay at Wembley on 22 May 1990.  Their record during this 23-month streak was 10 wins, 7 draws.  Of these 17 matches, 10 were played at home.

Q from Ken Agnew, location not given, 22 May 2003: A player who has parents of different nationalities may choose which of those nations he plays for.  Having chosen the country of one parent, may he change the country he decided on and then play for the country of his other parent?  Whatever the rules are, do they apply to all countries and, if so, from when?  Has any player ever played for another country and also played for England? 

A from PY:  We’ve moved the answer to this question to its own page since national team eligibility is a reoccurring question from our readers.

Q from Alan Grewcock, Sunderland, U.K., 12 May 2003: Which player’s first four caps were under four different managers?  

A from PY. The  answer to this one already appears in our trivia section, where we say: 

"Andrew Cole earned his first four caps under four managers for an average of one manager per appearance, an average that can only be bettered if the Football Association takes to firing and hiring England managers at half-time.  Cole made his debut against Uruguay under Terry Venables in 1995, appeared next against Italy under Glenn Hoddle at the Tournoi de France in 1997, made his third appearance against France under caretaker manager Howard Wilkinson in 1999 and finally earned his fourth cap against Poland under new manager Kevin Keegan in his first starting appearance a few weeks later."

Q from Paul Ellse, Derby, England, 12 May 2003:  Which ex-Brighton player had an England "career" that lasted for eight minutes?

A from PY. It's Peter Ward, on as a late substitute as England beat the Aussies 2-1 in the first official meeting between the two teams on 31 May 1980 in Sydney.  The only substitution time we have is from an Australian source, which says Ward came on at 85 minutes.  So the difference is either due to discrepancies in time-keeping or to your source counting some time which may have been added on.  This surely counts as one of the shortest England careers on record.

Q from Peter Smith, Crewe, (newly promoted to the First Division, of course!), U.K., 9 May 2002:  Against whom and when did Michael Owen score his first goal for England?  There must be loads of sites with this information, but I just can't find any! 

A from PY. Owen’s first goal came in England’s 1-0 victory against Morocco at the King Hussein II International Cup Tournament in Casablanca on  27 May 1998,  just before World Cup 1998.  Owen came on at 26 minutes for his fourth England appearance (his third as a substitute) when Ian Wright, playing alongside Dion Dublin, went off with the hamstring injury that eventually forced his withdrawal from consideration for the final World Cup squad due to be announced the following week.  Just seven minutes later Owen collided with the Moroccan goalkeeper and lay still for at least a couple of minutes before staggering off the pitch dazed.  Remarkably, he was allowed to return, although he later said that he could remember nothing of the first half.  In the second half, at 57 mintues, Steve McManaman's pass released Owen to sprint past the last Moroccan defender, draw  the keeper off his line and calmly slip the ball past him and into the net.  At 18 years, 164 days, he supplanted Tommy Lawton as England's youngest goalscorer.

We didn’t have to look this one up.  We watched the match via live satellite telecast in a Los Angeles area pub, and when Owen scored we leaped, arms in air, and yelled so loudly, strange stares came from the Moroccans seated at the next table.  We felt compelled to explain:  “He’s only 18 and that’s his first England goal.” We think they understood our enthusiasm; they responded with nods, but no smiles.

Q from Paul Ellse, Derby, England, 8 May 2003:  Whose England career lasted 22 years?

A from PY. Stanley Matthews made his England debut as a 19-year-old on 29 September 1934 in the 4-0 away victory against Wales.  He made his 54th and last appearance for England at age 42 on 15 May 1957 in the 4-1 away win against Denmark.  His England career thus ended almost 23 years after it began.  During the seven-year break in official international play occasioned by World War II, Matthews made another 29 England appearances in unofficial wartime and victory internationals.  Known as the wizard of the dribble, Matthews maintained a vigorous physical regimen and could easily have played on for England for a couple of more years.  His omission from England's World Cup 1958 squad was controversial because his scintillating play continued to delight fans in top-flight English football.

Q. from Peter Smith, Crewe, Cheshire, U.K., 7 May 2003:  Which England international won his first cap in 1966 and his third in 1977?

A from PY:  Ian Callaghan played two matches in 1966, against Finland in a World Cup preparation match and against France in the group phase of the final tournament itself.  The long-time Liverpool star, affectionately known as "Cally," was among those orthodox attacking wingers who could no longer find a place in the England team once manager Alf Ramsey fully settled on his “wingless wonders” formation.  After serious injury threatened his career in 1970, he became a central midfielder.  Although he continued to excel in league play--he was the Football Writers' Association Footballer of the Year in 1974--his third and fourth England appearances did not come until more than 11 years after his first and second near the end of 1977, when new manager Ron Greenwood put him in for his first two matches in charge, against Switzerland and Luxembourg.  The following year, 1978, Callaghan's record-length Liverpool career ended when he moved to Swansea City.  His England career totals--4  appearances, 0 goals--hardly reflect his quality.

Q from Jim, London, U.K., 6 May 2003:  Can you answer this question, doing the rounds at the moment in N.Z.:  "What did the English international football team do in October 1961 and in November 1981, but never in between?"

A from PY.  England qualified for the World Cup final tournament in October, 1961 and November, 1981, but never in between.  They were awarded a spot in the 1966 tournament as host nation and in the 1970 tournament as defending champions, both without having to play any qualification matches.  They failed to qualify for the 1974 and 1978 tournaments.  So there was a 20-year gap between their qualifications for the 1962 and 1982 final tournaments, which were accomplished in qualification matches played in October, 1961 and November, 1981.

Q from Martin O'Neill, London, U.K., 5 May 2003:  I want to know the names of every right back that has played for England since 1985 up until the present day.

A from PY.  Normally we wouldn't answer such a question because of the huge amount of time it takes to prepare an answer.  But we thought it interesting and so spent a few hours on it.  It required us to examine more than 200 match summaries.  

It's also a very tricky question.   Sometimes England have played a three-man back line consisting entirely of central defenders plus either a sweeper or wingbacks but no fullbacks.  Sometimes England have had at right back players who are out of their normal position--most recently central defenders Sol Campbell and Wes Brown.  One thus has to know what formation was used to determine whether a central defender or midfielder was played out of position at right back.  Finally, some players have changed positions and occupied right back for only part of a match.  

For example, right back problems proved overwhelming at the 1992 European Championship.  Manager Graham Taylor took to Sweden an England squad lacking any discernible right back because of a string of injuries.  When central defender Keith Curle proved a disaster at right back in the opener against Denmark, Taylor took him off and moved Trevor Steven to right back from midfield for the duration of the match. Taylor dispensed with the need for a right back in the next match against France, using three central defenders and a sweeper instead, and then put midfielder David Batty in at right back for England's last match against host Sweden.

For all these reasons, we can’t guarantee our list will be either complete or entirely correct, but we’ve done our best.  If this is one of those quiz questions, be warned that the quiz masters often don’t take such nuances into account, and so we certainly can’t promise our answer will satisfy any quiz master.  We can say we believe our answer is probably more accurate and complete than any quiz master's.

 

With these cautions in mind, here goes.  We have listed particular matches only where the right back was playing out of position. Those matches are the first, but not necessarily the only, match at which the out-of-position player was at right back.

 

Viv Anderson, M. Gary Stevens, Mel Sterland, Paul Parker, Lee Dixon, Rob Jones, Carlton Palmer (as a substitute for the injured M. Gary  Stevens against Finland in 1992), Keith Curle (against Sweden at Euro 1992), Trevor Steven (moved from midfield to right back when Curle was taken off against Sweden at Euro 1992), David Batty (against France at Euro 1992), David Bardsley, Earl Barrett, Stuart Pearce (as a substitute for Rob Jones against Romania in 1994), Warren Barton, Gary Neville, Phil Neville (usually at left back but sometimes started at right back and sometimes moved to right back when substitutions made), Wes Brown (against Hungary in 1999), Kieron Dyer (against Luxembourg in 1999), Sol Campbell (against Scotland in 1999), Danny Mills.

Q from John Pibeam,  location not given, 4 May 2003:  Who played in goal for Team America in the 1976 U S A Bicentennial Cup?

 

A from PY.  We don't have records of Team America's participation in the U.S.A. Bicentennial Cup tournament. It's difficult to find any information because Team America's matches are not regarded as official internationals since the side fielded players who had played for other national teams.  According to an Italian source, Bob Rigby played in the 4-0 loss to Italy.  According to a Brazilian source, one "Martin" played in the 2-0 loss to Brazil.  Our guess is it must have been Eric Martin of the Washington Diplomats. We don't know who played in goal in the 3-1 loss to England, although, according to the American Soccer History Archives, another goalkeeper, Arnie Mausser of the Tampa Bay Rowdies, was on the Team America squad, and he probably got a game in the tournament since he was a U.S.A. national team goalkeeper at the time and on the North American Soccer League's first all-star team that year.  If our readers have further information, please let us know.

 

[We have since obtained a copy  of Keith Warsop's British and Irish Special and Intermediate Internationals (SoccerData, Nottingham, U.K., 2002), which includes the summaries of a large number of unofficial internationals as well as B team and Under-23 team internationals.  It has Bob Rigby playing in goal for Team America against England.  And so Arnie Mausser apparently did not play during the tournament.]

Q from Ken J. Ball, Bromsgrove, Worcs., U.K., Scott Graham, Glasgow, Scotland, 30 April 2003, and George Sandy, Chertsey, Surrey, England, 1 May 2003:   Who is the only player to play for England at every level ?

A from PY:  This is obviously a quiz question since we've received the same question from more than one person.  We believe the answer the quiz master wants is Terry Venables, although Edgar Kail, possibly among others, would also be a correct answer since not all the levels of today existed in the early years.  See the notes we have reproduced below from the Association  of Football Statisticians website.  No other player is likely to equal Venables' feat since the England amateur side no longer exists.

Association of Football Statisticians website Thursday, May 9, 2002
Today in History
09 May 1929
"When Edgar Kail, Dulwich Hamlet inside-forward, played for the full England team against France in Paris he became the first player to have represented England at every level. He had previously played for England Schools and England Amateurs: there were no Youth or Under-23 sides at the time. Kail scored two goals in a 4-1 win.

Association of Football Statisticians website Monday, October 21, 2002
Today in History
21 October 1964 
"By playing for England against Belgium at Wembley, Terry Venables, the Chelsea forward, became the first player to appear for them at every level, schoolboy, amateur, youth, Under-23 and 'Full'. He turned professional with Chelsea in 1960 but had made his debut by that time. He was transferred to Tottenham Hotspur in April 1966 for a fee reported to be £80,000 and played in one match before the season's end. Turned out in 202 League games for Chelsea and scored 26 goals."

Q from Tim Stewart, location not given, 30 April 2003:  Hope someone can put me out of my misery? What was the name of one of England's coaching staff for the '66 final.  Can only remember his last name:  Cocker.

A from PY:  How quickly they forget!  It's only 37 years since England won the World Cup.  The name you want is Les Cocker, who was the team's  trainer.

Q from Chris Smeeton, location not given, 23 April 2003:  Can you advise if it's true that England once played in yellow shirt, blue shorts and yellow socks against Sweden away in the World Cup qualifying match in 1974 which saw England's Alan Ball sent off and us fail to qualify?  If it is true, can you explain why this was and if it was just the one occasion?   Could they possibly have forgotten the kit and have played in Sweden's kit?  I have a feeling this was also Bobby Moore's last game?

There are apparently at least four occasions on which England wore an element of yellow in their uniforms, although one of the matches was unofficial and none of them were against Sweden.  Why, you ask.  We don't really know but have a couple of suggestions:  bad taste and idiocy at the Football Association. 

We were there on 23 May 1976 when England wore yellow socks along with their regular home white shirts and blue shorts in a 1-0 loss against Brazil in Los Angeles at the U.S.A. Bicentennial Tournament.  This ghastly sight is forever ingrained in our memory, along with the perm hair-do Kevin Keegan sported that day.  The following week, on 28 May 1976, in the same tournament, England wore all-yellow strip in a 3-1 victory against Team America.  However, since Team America, composed of stars from the North American Soccer League, included some who had previously played for other national teams (Pele of Brazil, Bobby Moore of England and Mike England of Wales, for example), the match was not an official international.  There's a photo on this website of yellow-clad captain Gerry Francis leading out England alongside Team America's captain, former England captain Bobby Moore.  

England apparently also wore yellow jerseys in at least two earlier matches.  The 11 August 2002 London Sunday Time Sport Questions and Answers feature carried this item: 

"Q Why did England's football team play in a yellow strip against Poland in a World Cup qualifier in 1973?

"A There is no official record of that, i.e. in International Committee minutes, but from memory (I was there) England wore yellow shirts against Poland in Chorzow on June 6, 1973, and against Italy eight days later, losing both matches 2-0. It may have been a special hot-weather shirt.  David Barber, FA historian"

It was Poland, not Sweden, that was in England's World Cup 1974 qualifying group along with Wales.  It was the second qualifying match against Poland, at Wembley, a 1-1 draw on 17 October 1973, that saw England eliminated, although the earlier loss in Poland certainly contributed to that failure to qualify.  Alan Ball was indeed sent off in the first match in Poland. 

We are compiling a list of the uniform colours England wore in their various matches (we're complete back to about 1990) [nb. now 1946 and counting - CG], but it will be some time before we are able to confirm whether David Barber's memory is correct [...confirmed!].  The need for hot-weather shirts does not excuse the use of yellow, as Barber implies.  White is more reflective of the sun's rays.  England wore special hot-weather shirts in Mexico in 1970, and they were white, red and the non-traditional yet still acceptable light blue.

The match in Poland in which England apparently wore yellow shirts was not Bobby Moore's last match, but his fourth from last.  He then played in the away friendlies against the U.S.S.R. and Italy that directly followed the match in Poland.  He was, however, dropped from the later return match against Poland at Wembley, then returned for his last hurrah in another friendly against Italy, this one at Wembley.  You can find a complete list of Moore's England matches on this website.

Q from Dave Jones, location not given, U.K., 16 March 2003:  Please could you confirm whether or not Terry Paine of Southampton FC ever played for England and if he did was he ever captain?

A from PY. There are complete alphabetized lists of England players, with their appearance and goal totals, and of England captains on this website.  In the rules for submitting questions, mentioned at the top of this page, we warn we will not respond to questions whose answers already are posted on the website.  But we’re softies, so here’s your answer.  Terry Paine made 19 appearances for England, scoring 7 goals.  He was never England captain.  However, it should be noted that the Football Association regards as captain only players who started a match as captain.  Some players have worn the captain's armband when the starting captain has gone off, either injured or, in modern times, substituted.  We don't have complete records which allow us to say whether Terry Paine ever wore the  captain's armband in such circumstances.  It is highly unlikely, however, since Paine’s England career finished before substitutions became allowable in every match, and, in any event, there were always several players who would have been given the armband before Paine. 

Q from Martyn, Wembley, U.K., 5 March 2002:  Can you tell me if Steve Froggett has ever been capped for England and when? 

A from PY:  The unfortunate Steve Froggatt, recently forced to retire following his failure to recover from  a serious ankle injury, was never capped for the senior team, although he did play for England’s Under-21 team.  Manager Kevin Keegan named him to the squad for England's two European Championship 2000 playoff qualification matches against Scotland in November, 1999, but he did not see action.

Q from Mark Leech, London, U.K., 24 February 2003:  My Rothmans annual states that David Seaman's first Under-21 appearance was in 1985.  However, I know that he played in Bursa, Turkey in November 1984 for England Under-21s.  Could you please let me know of his first appearance for the England Under-21 team, please?

A from PY:  Rothmans is not often wrong on England's national teams, but one does have to know how to read it.  When it lists David Seaman's England Under-21 matches in 1985 as Fi, T, Is--the abbreviated references for Finland, Turkey and Israel--and so on, it is referring to matches played during the 1984-85 season.  The use of only the second year as an abbreviated reference for the entire season is usually explained at the beginning of the Rothmans section on England senior team appearances.  It would make things a lot less confusing if the explanation were repeated in every section where this seasonal abbreviation is used, but the editors try to save as much space as possible.  So David Seaman's first England under-21 match was against Finland on 16 October 1984, his second was against Turkey on 13 November 1984, and his third against Israel on 27 February 1985.   Compare Seaman's Under-21 appearances with the Rothmans section which lists Under-21 results and their dates and you'll see this is the only way the order of Seaman's appearances makes sense.

Q from James Hursey, Blackburn, England, 12 February 2003 and Ian Carson, Denny, Scotland, 13 February, 2003:  In 1982 a First Division club had six past and future England captains in the same team. Which team was this?

A from PY:  Six England captains played for Southampton FC in 1982.  The six, with the number of times and the years they captained England, were Alan Ball, 6, 1975, Mick Channon, 2, 1976-1977, Kevin Keegan, 31, 1977-1981, Mick Mills, 8, 1978-1982, Peter Shilton, 15, 1982-1990, and Dave Watson, 3, 1981.   All but Ball and Mills captained England at some point during their spells at Southampton.  Complete lists of England captains, before and after-World War II, by name, by chronological order, by number of captaincies and by success rate as well as a match-by-match list of England captains,  all with club affiliations noted, appear on this website.

Q from John Martin, location not given, 24 January 2003:  I have just been having a wallow through your magnificent website and a couple of statistics from the F.A. Hall of Fame section struck me as being a little unusual. Peter Shilton is listed as having been substituted 15 times, which equates to once every 8 games. I am no authority on Shilton's career but I don't recall him being a regular candidate for the dreaded managerial withdrawal.  The other unlikely figure concerned Tommy Taylor, who is listed as having come on as a substitute once and having been substituted once during an international career that extended from 1953 to 1957, well before substitutions were allowed so far as I am aware.  Is it me or have the powers that be made another couple of cock ups?  Great site.

A from PY:  A "wallow" for those who love the England team was precisely what we intended; we appreciate that description.  We understand why these two sets of statistics would strike you as odd.  But they're accurate. 

Substitutions were permissible in friendly matches long before they became permissible in competitive international play in 1970 provided both teams agreed in advance that they would be allowed.  Beginning in 1950 when Jimmy Mullen became England's first substitute--and a successful one since he scored-- in a friendly against Belgium, you will find the odd friendly in which substitutions were made.  That's the reason for Tommy Taylor's numbers.  Nat Lofthouse came on for Taylor in the friendly against Finland on 20 May 1956 in Helsinki (and scored two goals).  Taylor replaced Johnny Haynes in the friendly  against Yugoslavia on 28 November 1956 at Wembley (and, strangely enough, also scored two goals).

The number of times Shilton was taken off has nothing to do with the level of his performances.  Following the end of Ray Clemence's international career in late 1983, manager Bobby Robson had to give new keepers a go--after all, Shilts, too, was getting on--and he'd bring them on at half-time in friendlies.  One of Robson's problems was England entering World Cup/European Championship tournaments with only Shilton having international goalkeeping experience.  He had to pick tournament back-up keepers, and he used substitute appearances both to try them out and to give them international experience.  He couldn't have known that Shilton was amazingly consistent and indestructible at big tournaments, playing every match at the major final tournaments England reached from 1982 through 1990--three World Cups and one European Championship.

The first time Shilton was taken off was the 4-3 friendly loss to Austria on 13 June 1979.  Clemence came on at half-time with the score 3-1 for Austria.  None of the goals were Shilts' fault; manager Ron Greenwood had promised ahead of the match that both keepers would play a half, and it was Shilts' misfortune to play the first-half  in a great exhibition of attacking football by both sides. 

The rest of the Shilton substitutions: 

Nigel Spinks for Shilton against Australia 19 June 1983.
Chris Woods for Shilton against Egypt on 29 January 1986.
Woods for Shilton against Israel 26 February 1986.
Woods for Shilton against Canada 24 May 1986.
Woods for Shilton against Spain 18 February 1987.
Woods for Shilton against Northern Ireland on 1 April 1987 (a European Championship qualifier).
Woods for Shilton against Switzerland 28 May 1988.
Woods for Shilton against Denmark 14 September 1988.
David Seaman for Shilton against Denmark 7 June 1989.
Dave Beasant for Shilton against Italy 15 November 1989.
Beasant for Shilton against Yugoslavia 13 December 1989.
Woods for Shilton against Brazil  28 March 1990.
Seaman  for Shilton against Czechoslovakia 25 April 1990.

Woods for Shilton against Denmark 15 May 1990.

Q from name not given, location not given, 11 January 2003:  Can you name all England's managers since 1970. 

A from PY. Yes, I can, and so could you if you bothered to look at the coaches/managers list on our website.   By the way, Terry Venables and Sven-Göran Eriksson were given the title national team head coach rather than manager when they were appointed.

Q & A 2003 - Part 2

PY/CG