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Q & A 2009



Question and Answer Archive
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Q from Fabian, from South Africa, 15th October 2009:- Do you have any info on the school boy international player & coaching lists of names 1963.

A from CG: What I have is the ESFA book.  Nothing yet down on computer, just the book.

reply from Fabian:- do you have any info on William Hinton ex England schoolboy captain?

A from CG: this is what the ESFA book says about William Hinton - He was registered with Tottenham Schools Association, and he played all
his schoolboy games in 1963.  Now, in no particular order, he played against Wales twice, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Scotland and
West Germany.  It does not say that he was the captain... Okay - further on in the book - it gives the results of those games.  Against Wales on April 20 1963 - 2-0 winners at Swansea, and 4-1 winners at Wembley on 27 April in front of 90,000.  Against Northern Ireland on 3 May - 4-1 winners in Belfast.  Against Scotland on 11 May - 1-0 winners in Nottingham, attendance 22,000.  Against Republic of Ireland on 17 May - 2-2 draw in Leicester. Against West Germany on 24 May .... lost 3-1 in Heilbron.  Now - looking at the 1963-64 Official FA Yearbook.  That gives us a bit more to read about.  That reveals that E. Curwen was the captain, and Hinton was the right-back.  It also gives us date, which I have provided above.....

Q from Peter Webb, from River Kwai, Thailand, 10th October 2009:- I spend hours and hours reading through your site, fantastic collection of stats. It has now come to the point where me and my mates have been desperately searching for a mistake. After a couple of "near misses" finally I think I've found one....!!!!!!  On the England goalkeepers, David Seaman's comment is "Faced 3 penalties.  2 penalties were scored. 1 penalty was missed." England vs. Scotland, EURO '96, Gary McCallister...???

A from CG: Okay - I have just spent a few minutes on this - and his one miss I have recorded is the one against Luxembourg in 1998.  That is as far back as the Match Summaries go that I have managed to do - hence, I was adding them has I came across them..... so on this occasion, I will update Seaman's record to include the penalty save..... In my defence - you have picked up on an incomplete page - hehe.  So what else can I say, apart from - keep searching.  Its what keeps the website fresh and accurate, when people like yourself picks up on the

Q from Lee McGowan, from Brisbane, Australia, 9 October 2009:- Your site has been highly recommended by a friend who regularly uses the info he gets from you to win arguments in the pub.  I'm a researching for my PhD at QUT in Brisbane Australia. It's about football writing.  I'm trying to find out a bit more about the 1950's referee William Ling.  Do you know anything about him or would you know anyone I could contact to find out more.  Keep up the good work on the site....

I'd love to hear if you have anything else among the yearbooks.  I've been onto the Ely City site and I'm waiting on a response from them.  Unfortunately the guy who wrote the piece died two years ago.  Wikipedia is a great starting point. I then tried this football resource archive called rsssf or something - loada shite.  Recommended I google his name. I was like yeah, cheers mate.

A from Cris Freddi: Now then. Bill Ling. I haven't got much on him besides what's in the Pilkarska World Cup booklet - and I don't know its sources. According to them, he refereed only two World Cup finals matches, both in 1954, both Hungary v West Germany, including the final - and the booklet says he ran the line in one match in the 1950 finals. He was born 1 Aug 1908 and died 8 May 1984; my Polish is shite but it looks like he died in Canada...I know he refereed the 1948 Olympic Final and the 1951 FA Cup Final. And he was definitely known as Bill: it's in books by Arthur Ellis and Jackie Milburn.

Reply from Lee:- That's great. I know about the matches you've mentioned here. He also did a couple of international friendlies including one between Scotland and Wales in 1951. I'll see about getting a hold of the Ellis and Milburn books. I'm also going to phone the British Football Museum see if they have anything. The Bill Ling stuff is useful and knowing now he died in Canada gives me somewhere else to look.  You've been a great help so far Chris. Like I said, before I'm very grateful. I will also be sure and share what I learn.

A from CG: The FA Yearbook from 1952-53 has a list of leading Referee's in it, alas Ling isnt one of them..... but it does confirm that in 1947, he was the referee in the FA Amateur Cup Final.  The next year, 1948, he was one of the FA Cup Final linesmen, Reg Leafe was the other.  And in 1951, he was the FA Cup Final Referee.  Now the next years publication, the 1953-54 yearbook gets a tad more interesting.  There's a picture of Ling... Apparently, in the summer of (I presume) 1952, FIFA organised a conference for Referee's in Macolin, Switzerland.  Ling attended, there is photographic proof. Besides which, the text says that both Ling and Arthur Ellis were the two referees selected from England. That's it I'm afraid - after this point - he has become a forgotten man.  But I think because he did the 1954 World Cup Final, he is generally
forgotten about when doing his other match in the 1954 World Cup, Hungary 8 West Germany 3 on 20 June, what a match that must have been to not only witness, but referee....  Some mistakenly give the credit of the 1958 World Cup Final to Ling...some shocking work there, it was in fact Guigue.

Reply from Lee:- This is some of the best information so far.  The article will be all the richer for it.  I'll let you have a look when it's done.

Q from Tony Clive, location unknown, 13 August 2009:- Could you please tell me, if you know when the new England away strip is coming out, will it be before or after the next world cup?

A from CG: It will be released early next year.  Probably March or April.  Its going to be red again, and the rumours I am hearing is that is going to be in the same style as the recent white shirt, but red obviously, and no collar.  Making it very much like the 1966 red shirt.  However much we like the the minimalist style of shirt, the guys at Umbro/Nike really need to understand that its not the shirt we wear that makes the difference, but the players wearing them....

Q from John Curran, from Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada, 6 August 2009:- I can't find any reference of Bobby playing for "Black Gold" in June 1978 in Edmonton Alberta Canada against Benfica of Portugal, I know he was here as I have an autographed official magazine by him but no exact date other than published date June 23 1978. If you need a copy I can do so.

A from Colin Jose: Bobby Moore did play for Edmonton Black and Gold on June 23, 1978 against Benfica.  I looked it up in the Edmonton Journal today and it says that he played.  However, it seems that it was the only game that he played.  Black and Gold were a team put together to try to get Edmonton an NASL franchise. They played five games in Edmonton two against Roma, the Benfica game, and games against NASL teams Seattle Sounders.  They also played Roma in Calgary.  Black and Gold were also supposed to play against Poland when the team were on their way back from the 1978 World Cup in Argentina, but Poland pulled out of that game.  That was supposed to be Moore's second appearance.  Geoff Hurst played more than one game.  His connection to the team was through the coach Ian Crawford.  Both had some connection with Telford.

Q from Nick Salthouse, from Horwich, England, 3 August 2009:- Please could you advise the best place to find the u23 squad which faced West Germany at While Hart lane in 1961. I am partially interested to find out if Bobby Moore, Mandy Hill and Bruce Crawford played in that game.

A from CG: The team that day was:- Eliott Macedo, George Cohen, Len Ashurst, Francis Shawcross, John McGrath, Bobby Moore (captain), Terry Paine, Fred Hill, Johnny Byrne, John Barnwell and Michael Harrison.

Q from Derek Jenkins, location unknown, 18 July 2009:- I have just come across your Website and have, already, found it fascinating.   I must, however, correct information regarding one entry, from information which I have gleaned from research.   This is as follows:- Boyle, Thomas W. - His name was Thomas William Boyle and his Date of Birth was 29th January, 1886, i.e. two years earlier than previously recorded.   This was, I think, due to an error in a publication early in his career which was never corrected.   He died, in tragic circumstances, on 2nd January, 1940 but his death was not registered until the 5th which is the date often erroneously quoted.   I have a copy of both his Birth and Death Certificates.

A from Cris Freddi: Births Marriages Deaths lists a Thomas Wilkinson Boyle, so he did exist. But birth registered in Haslingden, Lancashire. The International Genealogical Index (not always trustworthy...) also details Thomas Wilkinson Boyle, but born 3 Feb 1889 at Saint John The Evangelist, Accrington. Meanwhile the BMD shows a Thomas William Boyle birth registered Jan-March 1886, in Barnsley.  I wondered about the possibility of Thomas Wilkinson Boyle still being the England footballer but born in Lancashire, not Yorkshire as in Doug Lamming's book. But according to Doug, Boyle was born in Hoyland, near Barnsley and his first club was Hoyland Star, followed by Elsecar in the Barnsley League, then Barnsley FC. So it's unlikely that he came over from Accrington as a young man to play for Barnsley clubs when there was another TW Boyle around who was born in Barnsley...  The second name Wilkinson came from Jim Creasy's research in Colindale - and why would a football paper have called him that if it wasn't true? I mean, it's not a name you'd invent, is it? Obviously someone mixed the two TW Boyles up to create a monster for stattoes like us! But it suggests Thomas Wilkinson was a footballer too...

Reply from Derek Jenkins:- I have been a Burnley supporter since November, 1945 and was brought up reciting �Halley, Boyle & Watson�!   I did the research some time ago as I was interested in Boyle�s career and his tragic end.   I am convinced that the T W Boyle born in 1886 is our man.  My reasoning is as follows:-

The first reference I have for him is in a Footballers� Who�s Who for 1907/08, where his date of birth is shown as 29 Jan 1888 (this is where I think the error first occurred)   He was then with Barnsley and his previous clubs are Hoyland Star F.C. and Elscar Athletic.   He was also stated as living in Hoyland.   Doug Lamming, in his early 1970�s publication on English Internationals lists him as �Thomas W.� , shows his previous clubs as Hoyland and Elscar and gives his date of birth as 1889.   I think that he assumed this year because, on his death certificate his age is given as 51.   As he was insane at his death he would not have any idea how old he was and I think that this was a guess.   As I said previously, he died on 2nd January, 1940, the 5th being the date of registration.   On this certificate he is named as Thomas William.   I obtained this certificate when up at the PRO on family research.   On trying to obtain his birth certificate, using the 1888 year I turned up Thomas Wilkinson, born in Haslingden to an unmarried housemaid.   I suspected this information from the start, as I could not see how she would end up in Barnsley.   I even thought that, with his name, Boyle, perhaps he was born in Ireland (other instances have occurred of players playing for two countries at this time) but further investigation, utilising the 1891 Census produced the 1886 certificate.   This has the following information:- 

Thomas William Boyle DOB 29th January, 1886 to Patrick, a coal miner, and Ellen Boyle (both illiterate).  Place of Birth:- Platts Common, Hoyland, Barnsley.

Bearing in mind this information, I think that we can be certain that he is our man.

Reply from Cris Freddi:- I disagree with him on a few points, but they don't affect the result. I don't think...!  First, I don't believe Doug Lamming assumed the year of Boyle's birth. He was far too good a researcher to assume anything. What I suspect happened is that Doug found that year in a Census, and it was a year out. It very often is. In fact I'd say it's the norm, in my experience.  Secondly, it's not impossible for an unmarried housemaid to move from Lancashire to Yorkshire. Even in those days, where people generally stayed put. After all, being unmarried, she may have wanted to leave an area where people KNEW she was unmarried. That was a real stigma in those days; they put you in mental hospitals for it well into the 20th Century;... Still it's hard to believe she moved to Barnsley and there happened to be someone else called TW Boyle who was born there. Though it's not impossible... Thirdly, why did the 1907-08 yearbook get his date of birth wrong? Had he lied about his age in 1906 to persuade Barnsley he had more years in him, so they'd be more likely to take him on? Possibly. If 1886 is correct, he was already 20 when Barnsley signed him, and he may have wanted them to think he was still a kid, with potential. But it still makes you wonder...

What might be worth asking is if the death certificate gives an exact date of birth. If it says 1886, great. If it says 1888, his being born in Lancashire may not be the end of it...

Finally, if Thomas Wilkinson Boyle had nothing to do with all this, why did Jim Creasy find exactly that name in the football paper(s) he checked in Colindale. Maybe someone made an assumption at the time, but again it's a question that hasn't been answered... So I suppose I should have my doubts. But it's Thomas William on the death certificate, so that settles it. Surely...!

Reply from Derek Jenkins:- I realise that I might have set the cat among the pigeons but I had very strong doubts about the birth in Haslingden (I know Haslingden from my youth and I think that the odds of anyone ending up from there in Hoyland, Barnsley c1888 are far higher than those of me winning the top Premium Bond Prize.)   I must also say that Boyle�s entry in the 1907/08 Who�s Who refers to him as �Thomas William� and says that he �Resides in Hoyland�.   I therefore am confident that we can take the Haslingden birth as not referring to him.   I have a copy of that Birth Certificate and I think that it refers to an interesting but tragic social story - not one connected with football!  Cris Freddi questions as to why the Who�s Who should have got the date wrong.   I think the answer is simple � it was either a mistake or a misprint which was carried on afterwards.  I would be the last person to denigrate Doug Lamming (with whom I exchanged correspondence on a number of occasions) but in his seminal 1972 work he refers to �Thomas W.� and states that he was �b Hoyland near Barnsley, Yorks 1889� i.e. with no actual date of birth. I think that I should also repeat that his date of death was 2nd January, 1940 and not the 5th, which was the date of registration.  His age is given as 51 and I assumed that was where Doug quoted 1889.  Boyle died, in dreadful circumstances, in Whittingham Mental Hospital, the cause of death being �General Paralysis of the Insane�.  A truly tragic story.

Q from Bernie Drummond, Waltham Cross, Hertfordshire, 27 June 2009:- Hi guys, guess what? we do know where the three lions originates from.  King Edward had two kids Martha and Steven,  Steven (who was in league with the pope) being the male would inherit the throne unless his older sister married some one of royal descent.  She went to France and married Geoffrey of Anjou (that's where the name England comes from, up till then the south east of England was called 'Cant' as in Canterbury, it's only after the Saxons invaded that the spelling takes on the German 'Kent') the three lions is his coat of arms.

A from GI: Richard the Lionheart was the first King to use the three lions as his Royal Coat of Arms, in 1198. The Coat of Arms of Geoffrey of Anjou were six rampant lions, but his son, who became Henry II of England, founded the House of Plantagenet in 1154. Richard the Lionheart was Henry's son. 

1127 AD - The oldest known coat of arms mentioned was where King Henry I of England supposedly gave his son-in-law, Geoffrey Platagenet, in 1127 AD a coat that consisted of an azure shield that bore four gold lions. (Henry had a legitimate daughter Matilda (subsequently married to the Count of Anjou). However, it was his nephew Stephen (reigned 1135-54), son of William the Conqueror's daughter Adela, who succeeded Henry after his death, as the barons mostly opposed the idea of a female ruler.)

1152 AD - three lions pass, guard, in pale, or. The third leopard, or lion, used in the Arms of England, was first added by this Monarch (Henry II) to the coat of Normandy, on his marriage with Eleanor of Aquitaine, in 1152.  Henry II was not crowned King of England until 1154.

So, to sum up, Henry II introduced the three lions to the Normandy Coat of Arms in 1152, but this did not become the Royal Coat of Arms until 1198.

Reply from Bernie Drummond:- Hi Glen, well done, you really do know your stuff. I was particularly impressed by all the corrections. It seems you do know where the 3 lions originates from after all. Keep up the good work.

Q from Barry Clemitson, Norwich, Norfolk, 2 June 2009:- One of the first matches I was taken to was a Holland u-23 England U-23 match in the early 70's. My dad was in the RAF at the time and the game was held at Maastricht ( I think ) but details on this game are almost non-existent and the only details I can recall were that there were few goals ( if any) and Stuart Barrowclough of Newcastle played. (my lack of knowledge is tempered by the fact I was only 8).  Any light on this would be appreciated score, crowd, team etc... ps any chance on the U-23 section ever getting updated.

A from GI: 29 May 1973, at Maastricht, the under 23 side lost to the Netherlands. Att: 5,500

Teams that night - Netherlands - Schrijvers; Van Ierssel, Krijgh; Walbeek, Schneider, De Jong; Jansen, Notten, Vanderkerkhof, Jeuring, Mulders. England - Stevenson; McDowell, Pejic, Cantello, Blockley, Lock; Mortimer, Perryman, Johnson, Whymark (Kennedy), Barrowclough.

The match report from the FA Yearbook 1973-74:-

Because of European Cup calls of Ajax players, it was agreed that the Netherlands team be allowed to include several players over the age of 23 for the match at Maastricht.  The only goal came midway through the second half when midfield player De Jong broke clear of two England defenders, and Stevenson allowed a low shot to pass through his legs into the net.  Up to this point England had had most of the game.  The England forwards had played well during the first half with Mortimer and Johnson particularly impressive but the number of clear cut chances were few.  In defence both Blockley and Lock stood firm against any challange, with Lock particularly commanding in the air.  However, Pejic was hard pressed to halt the strong running right-winger for the Netherlands, Vanderkerkhof.  In the second half England were increasingly under pressure.  Once the Netherlands had taken the lead England's chances of saving the match faded. 

Hope this helps, and I will get the u23 section underway soon.

Q from Roy Morgan, location unknown, 31 May 2009:- Would you have any idea how I can find any record of my brother�s appearances for the English Grammar schools,  boys� National Football team which played the Scottish schoolboys team at Celtic in 1957 or 1958.  His name is Norman Derek Harries Morgan (first names could be in a slightly different order due to our Welsh parents never being sure which of the given names they preferred). He went to Ashford Grammar School in Middlesex and I know that he played at least twice for the England Team. Can�t find any records anywhere!

A from GI: I must admit, I had no idea such a team existed, but initially found some reports of an annual fixture between the F.A. Grammar Schools XI and a Public Schools XI in the late 1950s. The Grammar Schools XI was sometimes labelled 'London Grammar Schools', but also referred to as the 'Grammar Schools of the home counties' and they faced the Public Schools during the Christmas holidays at the end of the year. I dug a little deeper and found that these teams were then merged annually as part of F.A. Schools Week, an initiative by the F.A. to help progress the talents of the budding footballers from the academic world. In 1958, they played against stronger (and older) opposition in the Universities Athletic Union XI and one of the top amateur sides of the fifties, Corinthian-Casuals.

Your brother gets quite a few mentions in The Times, no less. Firstly on April 18th, 1958 in the attached article on the F.A. Schools Week. Then, four days later, he played in the combined English Public and Grammar Schools XI against their Scottish equivalents at Dulwich, a 4-3 victory, although he gave away the penalty, from which the Scots scored the opening goal.

In 1959, he was not selected for the A team, which lost 4-0 to Pegasus at the F.A. Schools Week, but he was recalled against the Scots again, the following week, a year to the day after the Dulwich game (April 21st) and this was played at Celtic Park, Glasgow.

I've sent all the articles I found. They seem to tie up completely with your recollections. I'd be interested to learn what became of your brother after such an exciting period.

Q from Brian Peat, location unknown, 18 May 2009:- What was the England schoolboy team that beat France at Wembley in 1974? I believe Trevor Francis was on that team.

A from CG: I dont have the actual line-ups - but I do have a list of players taken from the ESFA Schoolboys Record.  What I do know is England played France on April 6 1974, and won 5-2.  These are the players who participated:-

George Bailey, Paul Clark, Peter Coyne, Ray Deakin, Steve Gardner, Bob Hale, Paul Haverson, Mark Higgins (Captain), Andy Kingston, Kevin Mabbutt, Martin New, Martin Patching, Kenny Sansom, Peter Savill.

Three of these were obviously substitutes.  But you may note that there is no Trevor Francis.  He did not represent England at schoolboy level.

Q from Matt Elener, location unknown, 18 May 2009:- I'm trying to compile information of how many England FC fans use each different Fansite that is available to them, whether it be official or unofficial.  I realise that your site doesn't ask for any kind of membership or registration but do you have record of how many hits you take at your site? Any information you could provide will be greatly appreciated.

A from CG (after deliberation regarding a timeframe): Okay - then we are taking 2006, April 2006: 760,000 hits, May 2006: 1,900,000 hits, June 2006: 3,100,000 hits, July 2006: 920,000 hits.

Q from Graham O'Brien, location unknown, 4 May 2009:-  With reference to your article [regarding] the 3 lions being owned by the monarch can you please explain to me about the O'Brien coat of arms and who it is that owns that of which is 3 lions, Please i would like an explanation if you may..?

A from GI: For all O'Brien's out there who have wondered why the lions on our crest are half gold and half silver here is the explanation: Milesius, of Spain around 1700 (possibly meant to be 700?)  Brian Boru's ancient ancestor killed three lions whiles hunting in one day, and commemorated the achievement by using the three lions in his coat of arms. Much later Brian Boru used them on his shield.  The O'Brien's used the three gold lions up until 1543. That was when Henry VIII conquered Ireland and Murrough O'Brien the Tanist was given the choice of dividing the lions in half (Gold & Silver ) or loose them altogether.  Because Henry VIII also had three gold lions for his own coat of arms.  Murrough O'Brien choose to divide the lions thereby keeping the coat of arms for all O'Brien's.  So, unrelated to the origins of the F.A. crest.

Q from Brian Thomas, location unknown, 29 April 2009:- I recently saw a picture of Bobby Moore captaining Team USA against England.  England were wearing what looked like a round necked plain white admiral kit, but I cant find any mention of this kit on retro sites.  Do you have any info?

A from CG: England were in fact wearing a yellow uniform.

Q from Jonathan Eldridge, location unknown, 31 March 2009:- How many games have the senior team played at Wembley, both old and new?

A from CG: http://www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamWembley/Index.html

Q from Helge Kalleklev, from Norway, 15 March 2009:- I was reading on your website, as I was wondering how many players that have captained England in World Cups. I can see that you have not included all the players that took the captain's armband when the captain was substituted. You've included that Wilkins took it when Robson was injured against Morocco, and that Shilton took it when Wilkins was sent off later in the match. This happened twice in World Cup 2006, when David Beckham was replaced. Against Ecuador, John Terry was England's captain and against Portugal, Gary Neville wore the armband. This was in "my time", so I remember this, but I do not know which players that took the armband when this has happened on previous occasions.  If you know the answer to the following questions, I would be pleased. :)

Bryan Robson was substituted against Portugal in Mexico 86, who took the armband? Wilkins?
Terry Butcher was substituted against Cameroon in Italy 90, who took the armband? Shilton?
Terry Butcher was substituted against Germany in Italy 90, who took the armband? Shilton?
Who captained England in the bronze final, when Butcher did not play? Shilton?
Is this the correct statistics?

A from GI: As it states on the Captains page:  Only players who started a match as captain are recognised as official England captains. Players who took over the captain's armband during a  match when the starting captain had to leave the pitch because of injury or, in modern times, because of substitution are not listed as captains in the Football Association's official records. In fact, it has said it does not even keep records of those temporary armband wearers. 

So, the passing on of the armband in such circumstances can only ever be a nominal captaincy. Shilton was captain against Italy in 1990, but when  Butcher was substituted against Cameroon and West Germany, I don't think  the armband was passed on, though I can't be certain. However, Shilton had been captain against Egypt, earlier in the competition, when Butcher missed the game, so he would have been the logical choice. He didn't wear the armband in either game, possibly because it was harder to pass on to the goalkeeper, and as these games were both packed with high drama and tension, the last thing on the players' minds would be to make sure someone was wearing the armband.

Against Portugal, I think we can assume that Wilkins took over from Robson, though again, I don't have any evidence, but as he assumed the captaincy against Morocco, albeit very briefly, it was surely his right against the Portuguese.

Q from Gerry Luczka, from Bolton, 23 February 2009:- I'm doing a project with a group of young people around the England Football Team.
Could you give me some background information as to why the England shirts have the three Lions on.  How did this come about. What is the history behind the 3 Lions..?

A from CG: http://www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamHist/HistThreeLions.html

Q from Joy Brady, location unknown, 22 February 2009:- Can you help me by telling me the 8 teams and dates Bobby Moore played for the u23 between 1960 and 1962?

A from CG: 1-1 vs. Italy, on 9 November 1960, at Newcastle - 2-0 vs. Wales, 8 February 1961, Everton
0-1 vs. Scotland, 1 March 1961, Middlesbrough - 4-1 vs. West Germany, 15 March 1961, Tottenham
7-1 vs. Israel, 9 November 1961, Leeds - 5-2 vs. Netherlands, 29 November 1961, Rotterdam
4-2 vs. Scotland, 28 February 1962, Aberdeen - 4-1 vs. Turkey, 22 March 1962, Southampton

Q from John Collison, from Caterham, 10 February 2009:- I am trying to research a match from 8 May 1953.  Ireland v England Schoolboys International played at Grosvenor Park (Distillery FC).  The reason for my research is that my father Captained the England Schoolboys team on that day, Henry Collison (playing centre half - number 5) and I am trying to find out if any records or particularly photographs of the match exist.  I have his shirt, the programme and a special pen that the English Schools FA presented him with on the day and a photo would finish this off.  I am not sure if you have records or a history section but anything you could do to help would be appreciated or recommendation of any one else I could speak to.

A from CG: The Official F.A. Yearbook 1953-54 does make a passing comment regarding this match, but nothing more.  The England Schoolboys International Players Records also makes mention of Collison's solitary appearance, but again, no more than that.

Q from Pete Sayers, location not given, 6 February 2009:- I wonder if you could help me? My first trip to Wembley as an excited eleven year old was in 1964 to see England Schoolboys draw 1-1 with their West German counterparts. I wondered if you had any information about that particular game or could suggest where I might find out for example, who played that day?

A from CG: You and 89,999 others watched the 1-1 draw on 25 April 1964.  Apparently England's goal hit the post and was dubiously awarded, although it does not say to who.  Pielken equalised in the 72nd minute;  The line-up is a little harder to find.  Because apart from the Official 64-65 FA Yearbook, which has the results, and a small write-up... The only other publication that comes close is the England Schoolboys International Players Records.  Which lists it by name, and then opposition played against below that name.  And England played Germany again two days later, the list doesn't differentiate between the two matches.  But here goes.... in alphabetical order. 
These players appeared against Germany in one or both 1964 matches:

Robert Bristow (both matches)  Trevor Brooking (one of the matches, don't know which? - but wow! this was his only schoolboy appearance!)  Ian Brough (both)  Ron Bryan (one)  Stuart Creech (one)  Roger Davidson (both)  Roy Evans (The Liverpool manager in years to come...both matches)  Derek Forster (both)  Graham Fox (both)  Robert Glozier (both...and Captain in both)  Douglas Giffiths (one)  George Luke (both)  George McVittie (both)  Colin Suggett (both)  Tommy Youlden (one);

Reply from Pete Sayers:- Thanks for your help Chris. Fascinating stuff. Wonder if I saw Trevor Brooking? Also, what a crowd for a schoolboy international. Those were the days eh?

Q from Andy Watts, location not given, 31 January 2009:- also from William Ryan, location not given, 6 February 2009:- I am the co-author of a new book in the writing about Allan and Ron 'Chopper' Harris. Ron told me that he was Captain of the England Youth Team that won the World Cup in 1962.  Hard as I have tried I can find no information whatsoever about this.  Any help you can be on the subject will be gratefully appreciated and a full acknowledgement will be made in the book itself.  AW
Is there any way I could obtain the full results of all the rounds of this tournament leading to the final.  WR

A from CG: Answer and scans were provided from the 1963-64 Official FA Yearbook.

Reply from Andy Watts:- That's fantastic, and certainly will get you pride of place in the acknowledgements.  Basically what we are after is everything that you have, dates, line-ups etc and if you can scan the picture, even better.  Ron has clear memories of who he kicked, and who kicked him, but he needs a nudge with a few facts and figures to really get him going.  It's going to be a fascinating insight into the two brothers. Allan's career really took off after he quit playing, and Ron's success at Chelsea make for a nice balance.

Q from Mark Chapman, location to given, on 29 January 2009:- I was interested to see your article on the disputed England matches on the England Football online website. Regarding the Ibrox game, I attach a copy of the Times article that reported on the replayed game, in which they mention that "this result of two goals each will be entered into the records of England v Scotland in place of the Ibrox match". This seems to back up your stance, of which I concur.  It seems the IFFHS is a bit of an oddball organisation. However, just a small aside, I don't agree with your assessment of the abandoned Rep of Ireland game in 1995.  If appearances (caps) are to count, so must the result, but that's just my opinion and nothing to get worried about!

A from CG: I know - this is always a sore point!  The point with the 1995 abandoned Republic match is the Football Association still continued to award the caps to the 11 players.  But as with all abandoned matches, the result cannot count, because a result was not reached.... Argentina in 1953 was only played for 21 minutes, but because it was a rainstorm with that match, its allowed to stand as a 0-0 draw.  I suppose the Football Association are ashamed with the riotting goings-on in 95, so decided to try and forget about it.

We have tried to compromise on this one, instead of putting the match in the 'forgotten matches' pidgeon hole, we have made mention of it whenever we can, because it's confusing otherwise... It will have a Match Summary when I get to it, and will have all sorts of footnotes..... Does this make sense?  I am re-reading it - and it still gives me headaches.

The conclusion in a nutshell should be - Neither the result or the appearances should count... but The FA insisted on giving them their caps, presumably so as to waste their well-earned cash(!!!), as they would have already been physically made.  So we have to too.  We must agree with the FA on results and appearances, because that is the official line... that is the history book.  The rest of it - where they screw up, we correct and make it known.  Goalscorers, referees, captains... They can't even get some of that correct.

Another conclusion - ignore IFFHS and FIFA.  They like things to fit into their niche. And it just doesn't. England is too big for that.

Postscript from CG: After noticing that the Football Association has now accepted the abandoned Republic match into their own history, we have decided to follow suit.  The Republic of Ireland match of 1995 is now officially recorded as a 0-0 scoreless draw.  And if anyone brings up David Kelly.....????!!!!